Episode #48: Will Ulmer, CCWP - Contingent Workforce Leader - 2023 SIA Game Changer

Will Ulmer joins Hiring University to discuss the latest and hottest contingent worker topics, including why some contingent programs work better than others and why!

Will Ulmer has over 15 years of experience in contingent workforce programs. He is recognized for his strategic, compliance-focused, and results-driven approach. Will has successfully built and managed first-generation programs at FanDuel and Epic Games, where he was named a Contingent Workforce Program Game Changer in 2023 by Staffing Industry Analysts. He has led implementations of VNDLY and Monument Consulting on schedule and under budget at Epic Games. At Waste Management, he also managed over $200M in spend and a contractor headcount exceeding 4,000 weekly.

"I truly believe that your talent brand attraction strategy can start or should start  with the utilization of contingent workers."

- Will Ulmer

For more Hiring University episodes tune into your favorite podcast player or visit us at www.ursusinc.com

Transcript

Jon Beck: [00:00:00] What's up, everybody? Boy, do we have a good one today. Will Omer, contingent workforce expert, who in the last few years has managed and built contingent programs at Waste Management, Epic Games, and most recently at FanDuel, joins us in the program today. Will, welcome to Hiring University. 

Will Ulmer: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

I appreciate it. Well, I want to 

Jon Beck: start our conversation today by acknowledging that you are currently a highly sought after free agent looking for your next opportunity. And for our listeners maybe just give them a sense of the last few stops that you've had, the things that you've done, cause you've done some big things.

Specifically FilmDuel. 

Will Ulmer: Yeah, no, I appreciate the call out there. I am on the market. So one of those interesting cases right now where I'm trying to find the next big adventure I feel like I've been on a pretty wild adventure for the past couple of years. So I, you know, started kind of really got into the big contingent labor game program management game while I was at waste management giant [00:01:00] program, 

a lot to work on, but that allowed that kind of springboarded me into Into epic games right in my backyard here in North Carolina. Obviously the maker of fortnight being able to actually build out so I was tapped on the shoulder to build out what a first generation contingent labor program could look like At one of the most, you know sought after video game makers in the space.

So Giant program global program a giant amount of spend I mean, I think we're bordering on close to a billion dollars of spend in that one program and how much we were spending on external labor You really interesting to go from a trash company to a video game company. But probably one of the most unique experiences I've ever been a part of when you look at kind of what was happening behind the scenes there and how they're leveraging this external talent, this creative talent you know, that really harnessing some of that freelancer space extremely well, very specifically spending time in the SOW markets there to just.

Huge, huge program. And then that allowed me to kind of springboard again into another first gen Greenfield type [00:02:00] environment with fan duel. So really cool environment there. Again, huge brand name that everybody's, seen a lot of recently and doing some really cool things in obviously the online sports book market.

Same kind of similar scenario where we, we don't know where, what we don't know. We can't measure what we can't see. And we know we have the spend, we don't know how to fix it, we don't know how to address it. And apparently I've be, become , an expert in this space and coming in and actually building out first gen program.

So kind of built out the first gen program, turned the keys to, to the car over to them. And now we're back on the market. 

Jon Beck: When you talk about corralling spend, you called out statement of work and a lot of the IC. Spend that's out there. And if you look at the pie chart per the S. I. A. You know, I see is taking a bigger slice of that pie for a lot of different reasons.

I think it represents a lot of things. But can you cite some areas where you had success? I feel like every event I go to now, everyone's just moaning about rogue spend, but yet nobody's really grabbing the bull by the horns and try to do anything about it. Can you talk about some [00:03:00] successes you had along the way?

Will Ulmer: Yeah. You know, I think one thing to address is I'm not sure I agree with the term rogue spend, right? I think it's just uncaptured spend. 

Jon Beck: Yeah. 

Will Ulmer: So I think that that's one of the things is like, and in some instances, I'm not even sure you should capture everything spend wise. Right. I think there's, there's a use case to be built for what should be captured and what shouldn't be captured.

But at the end of the day, I don't think it's actually rogue. It's just not, it doesn't have any guardrails on it. So I don't know. I just personal opinion of mine. No, that's good. That's fair. 

Jon Beck: Yeah. I mean, some people are manufacturing a problem that doesn't really exist. I 

Will Ulmer: Yeah, I agree. Right. And I think that that's, that's kind of my position on it is that, you know, I think that there's a, there's a place for, for us to consider what spend should be captured and shouldn't be captured.

So pivoting off of that, sorry. But going back to kind of your question, right. So where there's success, so, you know, and I think it boils down to like baseline fundamentals. And I think that a lot of times we get caught in kind of this, the nuances of what independent contractors are, what, you know, SOW is, and [00:04:00] it's easy to get into that trap.

And I think that one of the things that requires you to be very I guess, cognizant of is how do you define SOW? How do you define independent contractors? Because I think every organization has a different view into the space. And so what, what I found to be the most successful is to start at the baselines of this and say, okay, like, how do you define, or what are your definitions of contingent labor first and foremost, and then how do you define the nuances or the subsets of categories underneath that?

Cause that's, I tend to look at contingent labor as kind of the broad term, right, an umbrella term that a lot of subcategories should fit underneath. And so that's typically my approach. And that's where I typically find the most successes. Cause if I can get a baseline definition across the organization on what contingent labor is, and then I can get a baseline definition across the organization of what.

Statement of work is and how we view statement of work. Then I know how to address how I should be capturing that spend or how I should be addressing or [00:05:00] building policy procedure guidance around utilization of those, those subcategories. 

Jon Beck: I love the thread that you're going at, and let me pull on it even more.

Cause I think there's different agendas. That are trying to define this. There's the MSP if you have one, right? Because they're trying to capture as much spend because that's how they make money. There's hiring managers that want to get stuff done and they will take the least path of resistance, 

and to your point, some SOW spend is absolutely justified, comes with the purchase of equipment or services and maybe shouldn't be touched. There's procurement, which is always trying to save and there's legal that's trying to keep the company out of water in terms of misclassification. So those are a lot of, and then there's the, you know, there's a supplier, which nobody cares about, but we're trying to capture as much as we want to.

And in a lot of cases, aren't able to play across the board. So W and contingent, which is still a head scratcher to me in your position at the last. You know, three stops that you had. You're, you're, you're playing traffic cop a lot. I imagine in terms of managing all those agendas and making sure people [00:06:00] understand and educating people like, Hey, listen, this is why we're doing what we're doing or not doing to manage where the spend comes from.

Is that an accurate statement? 

Will Ulmer: Yeah, I think it's really accurate. And I think there's one important another category that we didn't talk about. And I think that's your, your friends in it internally, right? I think a lot of times we forget about them. But in, especially in first in programs, they're typically the ones that are actually managing the onboarding and offboarding of contingent workers.

And so I think a lot of times we forget about them, but they've turned into some of my best friends at every stop that I've made along the way, because they are the ones that having to do this. And they're like, we don't want to do this where I see people. We build and code and design the backend support of this.

Like, why are we doing the onboarding? So I like to always bring them to the fold. And I'm sure there's a couple of them that might hear this. They'd be like, thank you and say, thank you. And so to them, I say, thank you as well. 

Jon Beck: Where should I live? Where should it live? 

Will Ulmer: It's a good question. I mean, I think onboarding should live, I think within the program, obviously.

I mean, I think that when we talk about contingent labor, but I think who should own, I guess, I don't know, maybe, [00:07:00] maybe, maybe expand on that a little bit before I start going down my pathway. 

Jon Beck: I think, well, so I, with all due respect to it, that's not their skill set and where they're trained at and then what they shouldn't be spending their time 

Will Ulmer: on.

Yeah. 

Jon Beck: But yet they're having to do it, which onboarding is, there's a lot of different things involved, right? There's. You know, there's the, there's the mechanics and logistics of getting equipment and setting, you know, usernames and passwords, let alone. Indoctrinating new employees on what the company is, what they do and how they do it.

So, you can make an argument. It's human resources. You can make an argument. It's through the MSP slash contingent worker. If they are organization, if there is one in an ideal scenario, Where, where should it be?

Will Ulmer: Yeah. The first step is define what onboarding should look like. I think we're in a unique place when we talk about our industry and our category right. Is it like, it has all these nuances and people create up all these crazy terms all the time and they change and evolve.

But like, when we come, when we come back to the basics and we start to think about defining things, it's truly kind of, you know, the, [00:08:00] Cliche team effort, right? To define where should onboarding look like? How should it feel? How should it move? And I think that's kind of the role of the program manager, 

to really define how they want to structure this and then borrow from prior experience to say, okay, like I know what's gone good and I know what's gone bad. How do we make this, good. I'm, I'm at the core. I, I, I truly believe that like your talent brand attraction strategy, I think really can start or should start at your utilization of contingent workers and so ensure like they're the ones that are going to come in and out of these programs.

They're going to have good experiences. They're going to have bad experiences. How do you create this long lasting effort or long lasting impression on the, the workers that you're utilizing from a transient type background, they're coming in and coming out and how do you leave an impression with them?

And I think that that's really where you can have this really focused on that kind of the, the onboarding functionality and what you're Truly doing within [00:09:00] your program. And I think that's where it becomes this like cliche team effort, right. On how you're partnering with human resources, how you're partnering with, you know, your, your onboarding team, how you build out the it process within, you know, a VMS, or even outside of a VMS, how do you trigger the right things downtown downstream to ensure that it can in all kind of function appropriately and provide that great kind of onboarding experience that.

Is almost lacking in a lot of our contingent labor engagements that we see right now. For 

Jon Beck: sure it is. And by the way, I don't think it's cliche. I think it gets overlooked and dismissed. Similar to culture. People talk about culture, culture, culture. Well, culture takes work, it's a practice.

Onboarding takes work and there are multiple stakeholders and not to pick on MSP providers, but there's a reason why a lot of them have such low NPS scores because They're so transactional and they don't assign the right resources to do a lot of the things that you as the enterprise buyer need them to do.

And again, I'm not picking on them, but I [00:10:00] think that's one of the areas where they get dinged. I'll actually 

Will Ulmer: challenge that too. 

Jon Beck: Well, so sorry. Let me just a quick thought. We changed our operating model to we have a dedicated contractor care team because there were so many gaps in the process that we want to make sure that because ultimately it's going to fall on us for placing that contract and they're having a bad experience.

So we're the ones that are did you have your equipment? Like we do constant check ins. Like we're always pinging, pinging, pinging to make sure things are on track. And that's fine. We're happy to do it. It's good for us. But I would, I would argue that in a lot of cases we're doing somebody else's job. 

Will Ulmer: Yeah.

Couldn't agree more. Right. And so I'll challenge that, this, this assumption, or maybe not assumption, but this kind of notion that's like MSPs are getting dinged pretty heavily on their, Kind scores because of how they're, they're operating. And I would go back to like, I think that sits with the program owner.

I think it's, I think that if you're, if you're MSP has a bad score, it's a reflection of your. Program structure. And I mean, I'm sure [00:11:00] there's plenty of people that are going to disagree with that, but like, that's my impression. Like if they're an extension of you, like you're the coach of the team, right?

If they don't score the touchdown, you still on you. Right. To, to take blame and responsibility. And I think that we're in this position where a lot of program owners don't see it that way. Probably some of my best friends in this space have been former MSP partners of mine, because like I look at that relationship as an extension of me, if they are performing well, even when I'm not part of a conversation and they're receiving good marks, it comes back to me and like, Hey, these are the right people.

These are the right people you brought in there. In a lot of ways that I. I think it's some MSP. I don't think it's a lot of MSP's faults. I think there's some faults that lie within kind of the operation structure, but I truly think that there's the fault and really lays at the feet of program owners, and as a program owner in the, you know, it should be our own.

Responsibility to take that on and really drive that to a different place. And so that, yeah, that's, I, I, I throw it in [00:12:00] there just to throw a bone to my MSP buddies cause I think they, they need it sometimes. 

Jon Beck: Well, you're a, you're a rare breed, Will, in that you're. Acknowledging that as the program lead, that you should be taking accountability.

And it's really easy to point the finger when things go wrong and say, Oh, it's the MSV fault where it's like, no, if you're truly collaborating and working as partners, then you know, there's no, don't point the finger, reach out and figure stuff out and figure out ways to do better. 

Will Ulmer: KPI, all these things to death, right?

Right. I mean, like KPI to death, SLA to death. Like, it's very simple to just pick up the phone It's very simple to have one meeting a day with these people, with your MSP partners and say like, all right, what's going on today? Like even like, and those don't have to always take place that way that they, you know, they might be on your calendar, but like that time should be designated to them.

Like you need to be visible with this. , in some ways I think it's, It's a reaction to what we've seen kind of come into the program owner chair. And this might be a controversial statement, but I think what we've seen is we've seen more program owners start coming from procurement, not coming from [00:13:00] the industry.

Yes. And so I know, knock to them, right? There's a space for them there too, but everything is seen as dollars and cents and not as relationships. And that's where I think we have. Some issues when it comes to program owners, and I think it's being reflected in some of the scores We're seeing from MSPs VMS is everywhere is that it's not relationship driven It's dollars and cents driven and I think it's been this fluctuation that we've seen of program owners coming from procurement That's just my you know Probably wrong.

I don't know if it's wrong. I think but I think that's where it is. 

Jon Beck: I think there's a lot to it And they just don't have the skill sets in the background to understand the mechanics and all the nuances involved with that. So I think that's a big part of it. Let me, let me take this conversation even a step further.

The SAA had a article or report published this week promoting the idea that contingent work programmers should take the time or suppliers should KPI and scorecard their programs. Which is pretty bold. [00:14:00] And I had lunch yesterday with a bunch of people in, in our space that you would know.

And, and that, and that topic came up and And I'm like, well, I liked it. I went on LinkedIn and liked it. Not because I, I think we should all, all suppliers should, should KPI the programs, cause that's a little overboard, but the best programs that we're in are the ones that seek input and and feedback.

Cause again, there's, we all look through the world with different lenses. Any thoughts on the topic one way or the other? 

Will Ulmer: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's fair. I mean, absolutely. It's fair, right? I mean, it's a two way street, right? And I think we go back to the fundamentals of how this industry has evolved and been built out, right?

Is that it's a relationship, relationship driven People first driven industry and it has to be that way no matter what tech whatever process procedure you put into it It's always relationship driven and it should be feedback driven on both right? Is it again? I not to knock this and we've you know too much but I think this procurement mindset that has come in just how we're gonna squeeze contingent labor as [00:15:00] As much as we can and how we're gonna view it that way Has been a negative reaction has caused this negative reaction downstream and I could you know, this is my read on it, right?

I mean and I'm fine to be told I'm wrong and I hope people will actually challenge some of these these thoughts that I have But I think that there's a place where we should be looking at feedback as much as from our suppliers To talk about where we are. I also think that some of this Something that really I think is happening too is that we've gotten to a place where it's like, there's too much, there's too many suppliers.

Like, we're putting too many suppliers into programs, right? And I know that's, you know, talking to a supplier, you probably don't want to do that. No, 

Jon Beck: no, no, I agree with you. I don't want to be in a, listen, we get asked and invited sometimes to join programs and the first question is like, well, what's the spend?

How many suppliers? Like, well, It's this and there's a hundred suppliers. Mike, I thank you, but I think we're going to respectfully pass. I, that does us no good. Right. It's like, yeah, 

Will Ulmer: I just think that, look, I [00:16:00] don't understand why we're not like, we don't take, go back to the core fundamentals in a lot of places and just say like, it's people first, right.

It, I mean, when I was coming up. And the recruiting chair at Aerotech, it was smile and dial, right? Like pick up the phone, call the people, talk, talk, talk, build the relationships, build your pipeline, talked. And it's like, from a program perspective, like why would we put, if every, if every staffing firm is doing that all the time and that that's their job, smile and dial, call, build pipelines, do the stuff, do the stuff to like build the network to, to fill the wreck.

I don't understand why we need a hundred of them. Like it doesn't make any sense. Like if you build a relationship with five, and you should be able to do a great job. But again, I think it comes back to this procurement mindset that things are kind of happening in here and we're getting away from the relationship driven mindset that has really built this industry.

 I don't know, maybe like I said, we'll find out where it sits. 

Jon Beck: That procurement mindset says, if we have a hundred, then we [00:17:00] can squeeze harder. Because they're all going to be fighting for the bone and that's not going to result in quality. Let me throw AI into the mix. You can't have a conversation in our industry without AI.

And I'll go first. We're looking at a bunch of different technologies. I get probably as many calls from AI vendors as you do from suppliers. All purporting to solve all my problems, . And eliminate all my recruiters which I wholeheartedly don't believe. We think there's an opportunity to drive efficiency at the top of the funnel to do more first level screening and combing to have more relevant conversations with the right people, which will save ourselves some time, but I don't especially where we play in the high end technology and creative space.

I don't ever see a day where full life cycle that A. I. You know, system is going to replace what we do. I just don't, I humans buy from humans. And to your point, we're in a relationship business and yes, you can do some pre screening stuff to window down the pool of people that you're going to reach out to, but.[00:18:00] 

I'm curious what you think, because I know I've talked to some procurement people who are like all on board saying, Oh my gosh, this is great. We're going to eliminate all these headcount because we're just going to throw everything to AI. And I think that's a fool's errand. Your turn to 

Will Ulmer: agree more could not agree more.

Right? I think it is fool's errand. I think it's short sighted, right? I mean,

you know, the labor market itself, like the hiring market is already broken in so many different ways. Like why? Like, I mean, especially from internal talent acquisition, right? I mean, I think the internal recruiters like are, are no longer trained or taught how to actually recruit. And we're seeing that across the business, right?

We're seeing that across all over the place, right? I'm a free agent right now. I can tell you, they don't know how to recruit like, and, you know, and it, and it's not their fault. It's just that there's. Something's fundamentally broken in some of these processes where we think we can just throw everything into a, to an algorithm and make it work.

Right? Like I get it, right? If you're trying to [00:19:00] code and program in the next like it solution. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like an algorithm is probably pretty good for you there. Maybe some coding that you could come in there and there's probably a lot of use case for AI, but like, if, if we don't start to think a little bit more back to the fundamentals and the core fundamentals of what This business is and really don't let go of certain things like we can start there should be some certain non negotiable terms that are part of our thought process as an as an industry right that.

We, we really need to be focused on the part of the, the relationship building, the personal aspect of what this is, because it is a difficult, like, I mean, LinkedIn right now, there's how many recruiting influencers that are out there right there that they give like a million different suggestions on how to go out and find a job.

There's a guru for everything. I get that, but like, I don't think AI should be the guru we go to on like how to like. Find good people, right? Like I just think it just doesn't feel right. Like, I think you need that relationship to help kind of navigate this process, especially in contingent labor, because you are trying to bounce from job to job.

Or like some of these candidates are going from [00:20:00] one job to the next and they need that guidance on how to transition. They need that guidance on the introductions. Like it's, I see, I see a lot of use case or potential use case for what we're thinking about AI could be, but I don't know if we'd really kind of like flush that out to see exactly how it's going to work.

And, and I also. You know, I think we'd start to realize kind of that the way of working is changing, right? And our candidates really want to own their brand a little bit more. And they're, you know, kind of have that passion and economy and that hustle culture that's kind of been brought up into the new kind of talent pools that are available to us.

Like we, we need to probably give them better. guidance at times to probably help navigate that process a little bit better instead of just throwing them to AI and have them apply to a thousand different jobs that don't really mean anything or they don't even know what we're talking about. Right. I don't know.

And like, 

Jon Beck: and from the enterprise perspective, if you, despite what the press has said, yin and yang back and forth over the last 24 months, It is still a hyper [00:21:00] competitive market for top talent. So if I'm Apple, Google, Amazon, Netflix, pick all the big enterprise competing for the same talent pool. Why would I automate every aspect of my recruiting effort versus being more authentic with my brand and what I have to offer that's unique from the other people I'm competing with?

Will Ulmer: Yeah, 

Jon Beck: it's a total contradiction. 

Will Ulmer: I agree. And here's the other thing. Like I, maybe, you know, John, let's hope that maybe somebody from Google, Amazon or, you know, Meadows actually listening to our call here, cause that would be amazing. But here's the challenge I would put out to them, incentivize your internal.

Internal recruiters like you would a staffing agency recruiter. You'll get the best candidates tomorrow. You'll kill your competition, 

Jon Beck: which is why we don't hire people that come from corporate recruiting backgrounds. I'll do respect. We, they don't have the same fire desire to get better, to hustle.

They're not incentive the right way spot on spot on. 

Will Ulmer: So, I mean, put your recruiters or like under [00:22:00] that kind of incentive structure and you will decimate your competition. Look A lot of us come from, you know, come, came up through the recruiting ranks and, and have ended up in multiple different career paths for this.

And like, there's a certain fire that is built within and you can't really get ever shake it. And I just don't think, I think that, you know, some of the most interesting and great. Coolest people I've ever met have been recruiters. And I think that it's from a staffing agencies and they're just built different, wired different.

And I just think that there's something broken with internal talent acquisition that I think they should hire all these staffing recruiters and see what happens. 

Jon Beck: I could not agree more. It is the first. Interview question that we ask repeatedly of anyone who joins our organization, which is, is staffing your job or is it your career because we want people that look at it as their career who want to get better who have that hunger.

You have to be a little weird. Honestly, you're going to get knocked down 20 times to get up to 21st and get the win. But you either love it or you don't. And if you don't, it's really not a fun job for you. You [00:23:00] have to love it. So I totally agree. Good stuff here. Let's move to some speed round ish type questions.

And the first one's pretty serious. So I really want you to think about it. You and I both attended CWS in Dallas a month or so ago. And prior to the conference, you posted a very thoughtful LinkedIn post asking those that were in attendance who thought , they had the best swag at the show. Post show, I want an answer on who won that.

Will Ulmer: Ooh, that's a tough one. You know,

 I want to, I want to say whoever is going to hire me next has the best swag. 

Jon Beck: Hey, go for it, 

Will Ulmer: man. No, but I will say the, the swag that it was most appreciated from And this is, I'm basing it on the reactions from my daughters, because this is really where I played it.

This is really where I played, played big dad brought home like the best possible thing ever. But I was a talent. Oh man. What is it? I feel so bad. The talent burst that wasn't right. [00:24:00] 

Jon Beck: Yeah. Stanley cup 

Will Ulmer: talent burst. I think talent burst might've been a Stanley. I think that's the one. Okay. Quote me on it.

The other one, it was higher art. So higher art came through with some really nice cups too. And the branded JBL speaker top notch that's been getting rotated out on the porch around the 

Jon Beck: We've done some joint events with higher art their partners of ours and they roll over those speakers. And I'm like, man, that's brutal, dude.

I like squishy some things and you're throwing up the speakers. So I really 

Will Ulmer: . Oh, monument consulting pickleball set getting a ton of ton of use out of that as well right now. God, I'm trying to like, just like there was a, yeah, it's like, 

Jon Beck: that's a good one, two, three list. That's solid. Yeah. It's a very serious 

Will Ulmer: thing. You got to think through these things, right?

You got to leave an impression. 

Jon Beck: No, it's important, man. , well, 

Will Ulmer: I do, I do still have the the conference recovery bag. That is very, that's been, yeah, my, my wife's about to go on another, on a trip.

So we've like, we've restocked that bag, we've put the right stuff in there and make sure it's, [00:25:00] so that'll be, that'll be, that'll be a mainstay in our travel items. So big on, big on that one as well. 

Jon Beck: Love it. Thanks for the shout out. Will, if you could tell yourself one thing when you first started in this industry, That you've learned today.

So you could go back in the way back machine and tell young will one piece of advice when you were first starting out based on what you've learned thus far. What would it be? 

Will Ulmer: Hmm.

That's a good question. 

Very good question. There's, yeah, there's a couple of things that come to mind. I think one like very like it kind of hits home, you know, in some of the ways, and especially when we talk about how these calls and, or, you know, any kind of call I have with anybody in the industry is that you don't know what you don't know.

, I think that was been a one for me to like, kind of that I've hung on. Right. Is it, you know, I don't know what I don't know, and it's fine to have that understanding and continue to explore what I don't know and learn more about it. And that's led to some really powerful times in my life, especially in my career.

But the other one that has always really stuck out to me is [00:26:00] that and this, you know, I'm sure a lot of people have heard this one, but it's one that I, I've really, I really enjoy personally. And it plays a big part in kind of who I am and what I'm always trying to do. Especially from a career perspective, is that like, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.

, I Where we are in this industry right now, where I am is like, I stand on the shoulders of people, of giants, right? People that like literally have built this and given me a career path. , and I don't know everything. And for me, I don't want to be the smartest person in the room.

I want to be in this learning environment that is constantly evolving, allowing me to grow. And so I think for me, that was, those were two pieces of advice that I got early on is, you know, you don't know everything and you're not the smartest person in this room. And so this is 

Jon Beck: episode 49 for us.

So I've asked the same question 49 times. And it's the first time that I've heard. If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. That is really good stuff. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, last speed round question for you. We'll have some fun with this one. FanDuel [00:27:00] has this ongoing promotion.

You bet your first 5 you win to get 300 bucks. It's a two part question. One, have you taken advantage of it? And if so, did you win? 

Will Ulmer: No, no. Couldn't have taken advantage of it. It's part of the, part of the gig of working for Vdu. You can't use FanDuel, . But you know, I, now I'm on the market, so you know, I, maybe I should maybe I should sign up

So I , 

Jon Beck: I, I get bombarded with that app. I'm not a gambler. Yeah, five, five bucks, 300 mile. And it's like, well that's, there's gotta be a catch to it. But anyways, it's, it's . 

Will Ulmer: There's always a catch. Right, exactly. The house always wins. . I think I'm now, now I like the money in my pocket more than I like the opportunity to potentially put more in there with some gambling. 

Jon Beck: Will, it's been awesome. We've, we've covered some really good ground and appreciate you taking some some maybe you know, not obvious or popular approaches to answers.

For those interested in connecting with you and more importantly, hiring you, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you? 

Will Ulmer: Yeah. LinkedIn always works perfect. 

Very [00:28:00] active on there. Obviously on the market right now. So if you got anything where I can help out, even if it's on a short term basis, I'm open to kind of everything right now. I feel like I bring a really unique skill set to to some of the some of the space right now. So. Thanks a lot for having me.

Can't thank you enough for this. It's been awesome to have this conversation. 

Jon Beck: Yeah, no, for sure. It's been fun. And we'll, we'll definitely have you on again. As soon as you land, get your next gig from our listeners, as always, thank you for turning in keep grinding, keep the faith, keep safe. And we will see you next time on hiring you.

Thank you again. Well, 

Will Ulmer: thank you.